The Two Sides of "Make Me"
I’m going to start with a generalization. It’s a nice generalization, because like with all generalizations of its kind (There are two kinds of people, those who DO and those who DON’T) there is a least a kernel of truth in it. Here we go…
There are two kinds of submissives, or bottoms, in this world: those for whom an action is hotter if they are doing something they don’t want to do, and those for whom doing something they don’t want to do adds no special zing. (This is paralleled by the reflexive two kinds of dominants or sadists, but I’m mostly going to address the issue from the side with which I am most familiar… the bottom)
I am the second kind of submissive (and bottom). Doing something I don’t want to do doesn’t excite me simply because it’s something I don’t want to do. I will do such things, if I am asked, and find some level of enjoyment in them out of the fact that they are making my partner happy, but I don’t get any “oh! it’s so hot to be forced to do something I don’t want to!” rush.
I do know people who claim to be the other sort of submissive. One or two of them probably really are that sort of submissive (and I know at least one sadist who really does get off on doing things his partners hate because they hate them… he’s the only friend with whom I regularly negotiate things in instead of out.) However, I suspect that a large number of the others are failing to make a distinction between things they don’t want to admit they want (possibly even to themselves) and things they actually don’t want.
Now, I will be the first to admit that being forced to admit to desires I find embarrassing or shameful is incredibly hot, as is being made to act on them. However, these are not things I don’t want. They are, perhaps, things I don’t want to admit to, or things I could never ask for, but that is most decidedly not the same thing. They are often things that I would not have the nerve to do without someone giving me the emotional support of telling me to do them, but if I had to be brutally honest with myself and my partner they would be things I fantasized about. Perhaps things I fantasized about finding humiliating, but apparently I like a little humiliation so… not the same thing.
The pleasure I get in doing something I actually do not want to do is solely the pleasure of being able to give my partner something that he or she wants. There may be in it a bit of pride, but being ordered, or expected, to give something I don’t want to is no more exciting than being ordered, or expected, to give something I am thrilled to provide.
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on December 14th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Interesting.
As a Dom I am not sure which group I would be in. I don’t like to cause people genuine emotional discomfort, and so I would be very unlikely to make someone do something they didn’t want to do (unless I had twisted their mind so they wanted to do it first…), except if they were part of the first group of Subs, i.e deep down they wanted to be made to do it, precisely because they DIDN’T want to do it. In which case it is very hot! So which group am I in?
on December 14th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
The difficult kind ;P
And that’s the thing, even the yes/no generalizations don’t fit everyone all the time. From what you just said, I suspect you’re in the “it doesn’t make it hotter for me to make people do things just because they don’t want to do them,” camp, but I prefer to let people label themselves (or not) as they choose.
on December 14th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Sorry, that should be “the argumentative group.” I accidentally answered the question I thought you asked… “what kind of dominant am I?” instead of the one you actually asked… “Which group am I in?”
*grin*
on December 14th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
That’s a really good distinction, between being made to do something you have trouble admitting to wanting and being made to do something you don’t want to do. They can look like the same thing from the outside.
On the other hand, simply finding pleasure in doing something you don’t want to do might betray traces of “wanting to do it” in the activity itself, even if only because you enjoy giving a partner that kind of satisfaction. That’s something I think is incredibly sexy, and I would count certain bits of that as “stuff I don’t want to do” but would still cal it selfishly pleasurable, and obviously that’s a paradox.
Er. Sorry, end ramble.
on December 14th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Never apologize for rambling in this blog! Your rambles usually make me think something through more clearly!
on December 14th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Meep! Yes’m!
on December 14th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
*pet pet* Here, have a cookie!
on December 14th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
COOOKIIEE!! (with bondage)
on December 14th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Wow. How much do I like YOU right now. *makes giant fish arms* THIS MUCH!!!!!!
COOOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH BONDAGE!!!!!!
on December 14th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
I think I definately am the difficult kind! I think that should probably be my label, “The difficult kind of Dom” :p
I think it is likely you are correct that I’m in the it doesn’t make it hotter for me to make people do things just because they don’t want to do them” camp, however to be fair what IS great fun is changing what someone wants. Then you can have all the fun of making them do what they didn’t want to do, but without feeling bad about it! Also that moment when they go “Umm, actually would you mind if…” is so much fun…
I think you are probably right maymay, the fact that they want to be made to do something they don’t want means that on some level they want it in the general sense, if not the specific. Of course there is also a time component; they might not like it at the time, however thinking back they may enjoy the memory.
on December 14th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Maymay, you are now officially an internet god for posting that link.
on December 15th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
I just clicked over here from May. If I don’t know you, I should! This is very well said.
But I’m with May: I’m not sure how to draw the line on what I don’t want. I figure if I let them do it, I wanted it somehow.
on December 15th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Hi! Welcome! Yes, you do know me, and I think that’s a really valid point. I would say more, but I have house guests! Whee!!
on December 15th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
I think you are probably right maymay, the fact that they want to be made to do something they don’t want means that on some level they want it in the general sense, if not the specific. Of course there is also a time component; they might not like it at the time, however thinking back they may enjoy the memory.
Mirehn, something I should probably write about at some point is the notion I have had for a long time of “sexy hot versus BDSM hot” wherein BDSM hot is defined specifically as “something that was not sexually arousing at the time, but that creates a memory I will totally masturbate to later.” I briefly started to explore that in an entry called “Don’t be nice….”
on December 16th, 2007 at 4:23 am
Calico.
I figure if I let them do it, I wanted it somehow.
I don’t know how I feel about that. I can see where it comes from, and I suppose I will admit that this is a thing where different people have a different internalization. I would rarely assume (as you know) that if the person let me do it was enough to make me think they wanted it.
Rona: I pretty clearly fall in the “I get nothing out of making you do something you don’t want to do” category. I do think the “I get to help make you do something you couldn’t do on your own without me pushing you” really hot. It is very hard for me to assume I know what those are.
On the other side of the coin, being made to do something I don’t want to do will leave me totally cold.
It is late and if I was on less endorphins I would be sleeping now. Maybe I will be more coherent in the morning.
on December 16th, 2007 at 5:13 am
[i]Mirehn, something I should probably write about at some point is the notion I have had for a long time of “sexy hot versus BDSM hot” wherein BDSM hot is defined specifically as “something that was not sexually arousing at the time, but that creates a memory I will totally masturbate to later.” I briefly started to explore that in an entry called “Don’t be nice….”[/i]
Ah yes, I know what you mean. If I may use an anecdote from your own experiences, when Eileen and your mutual friends kidnapped you and beat you, you were quoted as saying: “Stop stop, I can’t get hard if you keep doing that!” The context was that I believe Eileen was attempting to rape your battered body, but your continual bruising was causing you problems. You enjoyed the attacks (and would certainly enjoy them later), however there wasn’t an instant sexual aspect to them, in fact I believe one of you two remarked that for you it could be a turn-OFF, even though it was enjoyable.
Is that a good example of what you were talking about?
on December 16th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Is that a good example of what you were talking about?
That is, in fact, an excellent example of what I’m referring to. It’s unfortunate, though understandable, that I Eileen removed that entry from public view.
To clarify, it was the superposition of emotional states that defined the experience as “BDSM hot” for me in the moment. The sentiment of the environment was at once “fight this,” and at the same time, “sexually enjoy this,” and while it was certainly sexually enjoyable to fight it, there was too much of the fighting to enjoy it right then, despite the minor sexual stimulation.
At the point in which I was quoted, I could feel one of my friends’ gloved hands beginning to masturbate me. That was certainly arousing and I remember starting to get semi-hard, but other friends kept hitting me and eventually I fell back into fighting-space and just didn’t stay hard for long. I should write about erections one day.
Anyway, none of that’s to say it was a disappointment for me—they decided to make great use of my ass and my mouth and even though the experience itself was not directly sexual for me, god, was it ever hot!
I still masturbate to that memory.
on December 16th, 2007 at 7:09 am
Victor,
Color me completely unsurprised by your first comment, and not even remotely shocked by your second.
I also think I have a comment on your comment to Calico, but it keeps coming out wrong since I really shouldn’t be awake right now and I’ve already been writing for two hours. I think I’m going to go back to sleep.
on December 16th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
This is a really interesting comment thread.
(Now with three times more Martha Stewart!)
I’m chiming in, although I think May has covered this very well from a bottom’s perspective, because of the interest in non-con type scenes that we both share. The thing about playing with scenes that have aspects of non-consent, (i.e. kidnapping, rape fantasies, simply bushing boundaries past where someone might go if they could opt-out) is that from an outside perspective they read *very* much as “I’m going to make you do something you don’t want to do.”
And I have to say, I find that hot in some ways - in theory, in fantasy, in pornography. But (the big but) it doesn’t work for me if the person I’m playing with absolutely doesn’t want to be made to do something. Complete ethical turn-off.
(Only in BDSM can the phrase “ethical turn-off” make so much sense.)
As I said in a recent email, I won’t try non-con scenes without a huge basis of trust. Also, I won’t try them (or perhaps am very wary of trying them) on someone who doesn’t have some kind of interest to begin with, whether that’s a genuine fetish or a mild curiosity.
Which means that the actual play I’m interested in, although it reads as “I’m going to make you do something you don’t want to do” from an outside perspective, is actually “I get to help make you do something you couldn’t do on your own without me pushing you” from an inside perspective.
Really, if they don’t masturbate to it later, it wasn’t a good scene at the time. ::innocent grin::